Again, I expect to get hammered; but I believe this is a valid self-portrait and it was shot specifically for the challenge. I literally went out to the brambles at Fort Hill, Nauset Marsh (a 20 minute drive) to make this image.
POST CHALLENGE ADDENDUM
You know, I didn't expect this to do very well, but I never in my wildest nightmares expected it to finish next-to-last. 65 1's is ridiculous. I have given 5's to excellent photographs that seem to have no relationship to the challenge whatsoever, granting the photographer courtesy of assuming that s/he was making a connection I had missed. And of course, in this case I spelled out the connection explicitly in the title.
It would appear that in the DPC mindset, it is NOT POSSIBLE to make a self portrait that does not include one's body as some portion of the image. Let's be perfectly clear on this; I can accept that the mass of voters would think it's a poor self-portrait that chooses not to include "body" as its subject, but that's not what's happening here. No, what I am being told is that EVEN THOUGH I TRIED TO DO A "PORTRAIT OF MY MIND" (by far my "best side") this image does not qualify as a "self-portrait", not even as a poor one.
I'm not especially bothered by this; I can handle it. But it gives me pause. Surely one of the common denominators of people who frequent a site like this is that they want to create art at some level? And surely one aspect of art, possibly the most imnportant aspect, is to free oneself from conceptual blinders and SEE THE WORLD DIFFERENTLY?
Unfortunately, what I am seeing over and over again (not just with my own images, indeed not even primarily with my own images) is that people seem to be "voting" in DEFENSE of their own point-of-view, rather than sitting back (as I believe they ought to, or what's the point?) and letting OTHER points of view sweep over them, trying to appreciate images as what they are intended to be rather than as what the viewer "wishes" they might be.
Let me reiterate: I'm NOT "whining" that I got a low score. The score's not important, and I didn't expect a high score in any case. But the huge conglomeration of 1's here is telling me something much more disturbing: "If you don't see it our way, you don't belong here."
I believe strongly that no image which is technically excellent deserves to be given a 1 or even a 3. I believe strongly that each of us should be encouraged to pursue our own vision, and the each of us should take pride & pleasure from watching others do exactly that. What we're seeing in this case is over half the people who voted on this image telling me it is worthless because it doesn't agree with their idea of what a self portrait should be. That's scary, really.
Robt.
Statistics
Place: 243 out of 247 Avg (all users): 3.4696 Avg (commenters): 4.0541 Avg (participants): 3.3660 Avg (non-participants): 3.5688 Views since voting: 7537 Views during voting: 634 Votes: 313 Comments: 96 Favorites: 22 (view)
loved reading your notes on this .. I totally relate ..
especially this bit ..
"Unfortunately, what I am seeing over and over again (not just with my own images, indeed not even primarily with my own images) is that people seem to be "voting" in DEFENSE of their own point-of-view, rather than sitting back (as I believe they ought to, or what's the point?) and letting OTHER points of view sweep over them, trying to appreciate images as what they are intended to be rather than as what the viewer "wishes" they might be.
Let me reiterate: I'm NOT "whining" that I got a low score. The score's not important, and I didn't expect a high score in any case. But the huge conglomeration of 1's here is telling me something much more disturbing: "If you don't see it our way, you don't belong here."
I believe strongly that no image which is technically excellent deserves to be given a 1 or even a 3. I believe strongly that each of us should be encouraged to pursue our own vision, and the each of us should take pride & pleasure from watching others do exactly that. What we're seeing in this case is over half the people who voted on this image telling me it is worthless because it doesn't agree with their idea of what a self portrait should be. That's scary, really."
Robert, I came to this shot through a discussion thread on the Self-Portrait II challenge. Just wanted to say that I find both the title and the shot to be BRILLIANT! Love your notes on it. It makes perfect sense and fits well with what needs to be said. :) (Had I said it, I would have been slammed LOL)
I saw a thumbnail of this in a forum post, so I thought I'd offer my two cents as to why people would vote this so low.
I think people thought it was a shoehorn image. They assumed you didn't have any ideas for a good self-portrait or you didn't have time to set up a tripod and lighting, so you gave a recent shot a clever title and stuck it in here. I know that's not what you did, but that's what people thought. Shoehorn images have become the norm here, and it's become the norm to give them 1s, unfortunately. Sorry it didn't score better...
My goodness...what a bunch of comments for sure! ... 4 10's and 13 favorites to date!?!?!?! I can't believe Scalvert nailed you on this one. Wait...yes I can darn that sneaky Shannon! To me, this is the best part of what you wrote and my sentiments exactly:
'what I am seeing...is that people seem to be "voting" in DEFENSE of their own point-of-view, rather than sitting back...and letting OTHER points of view sweep over them'
This is an excellent photo, Bear. I think it is a good example of the benefits of formula voting. For quite a while I voted by formula based on meets challenge, technical merit, composition and wow factor, and this would have probably gotten a 6 based on that. I eventually thought that was too scientific (objective) for an art (subjective) endeavor and have switched to more of an overall impression of the picture combined with meeting challenge and I would have probably given it a 4 (nice picture but DNMC) or if I thoughtfully considered the title maybe a 5 or even a 6 based on that.
This is a wonderful photograph, and I'm intrigued by the use of it for a self-portrait. I was not around in 2005 to vote, but I'm sure I would have given it a 4, which is what I give to all technically sound, etc., photographs that don't meet my expectation of the challenge. Now if it was late at night, and I was enjoying a nice stout, then I would have stopped to consider why the photographer entered this photograph. So, I'm embarrassed to say that I would ordinarily considered this a DNMC. I think I will reconsider that practice. This a beautiful photograph, that in the context of an abstract self portrait, is contemplative and emotive. Well done. Cheers! Ben
Wonderful articulate response to this voting travesty. As long as you don't lose your nerve to continue to post assumptions-challenging images like this, we'll all be the better for it.
When I first joined DPC, it seemed that people were voting in response to the photo, in the context of the challenge. After a while I realized that people are voting in defense of their point of view, sometimes in defense of their own photograph. How could it be otherwise. we are only human, after all. Photography is dangerous ground for an open, questioning mind. The overwhelming technical nature of photography attracts the documentary, objective, literal mind--the kind of mind that has only one interpretation of Self Portrait.
Yours is an un-DQ-able photo that is artistically & technically excellent. It challenged the concept of Self Portrait for those who were open to the thought. You wrote an excellent defense of your point of view. Mission accomplished. Keep on clickin'!
please, do not let it upset you! you are absolutely right about the "defence" voting and I really find this voting system very frustrating. it can even kill some souls I think:(
I've never given anything lower than 4 because every photo, whatever it is takes some effort and some ideas to make.
ah, this is so sad and scary. that's why I'm not going to enter any challenges anymore.:(
here here I totally agree with you. My very first challenge was a rude awakening. The pic was horrible admittedly but the comments were that there wasnt light on white. Oh well taught me not to take it very seriously. By the way this is a great shot
I hear you BEAR, and its a bloody nice shot too! Hey, as an after thought, maybe you could get a reflection of your face in the water drop then you could have jambed it up all the critics!!! (just a thought)
If I had joined DPC to obtain my masters in photography i might follow every chalange to the letter. But I didnt! I joined DPC for fun, encourgement and to rekindle my love for photography. I can understand some of the politics that go on in these threads and i believe that there are many very talented photographers (pros and amatures)who use this site for nothing more than forum to get their shots out to the masses and for the masses to admire their talents. But i can't understand why if i submit a close cropped shot of my kids dirty hands playing in the sand needs to be discected to bits because its not "this" or not "that" so DNMC?
My shot was MY interpitation of the challenge. Was it a portrait? maybe not, Was it within its environment? you can take a photo of a nurse on a beach but this would not be relevant to the environment. Was it portrait or landscape? who cares!! Kids get dirty, kids play in dirt (its the enviroment!) you can tell that the hands are a childs hands so do i need to show the face for it to be deemed a portrait? if people dont like what you've shot, let them express that with their vote but they SHOULD not pick it to pieces because it does not fall in to "their" definition of the challenge.
I enjoy photography for the emotion it can bring (in the images not in comments)
Thats my thoughts. What are yours?
I agree with tristalisk. When you are judging self portrait after self portrait (244 in total) and you see a drop of water on a branch (nice picture, nice bokeh and everything), my immediate thought is, 'someone's in the wrong challenge!' Without an explanation, sometimes the title doesn't make sense to the 'ordinary' person whoever the 'ordinary' person is.
Shots like this entered in a Self Portrait comp are risky. You took the risk - and good on you. But you have to expect that people will give you 1's when they don't get it.
This challenge was beyond my time. In all honesty, even if I would have understood it (and I probably wouldn't have) as a picture it ranks a 5 or 6 to me. Just being honest.
But I admire you for doing something different and for that I give you a 10. Also congratulations on the publishing...that was probably a great sense of pride and satisfaction for you.
I agree with tristalisk. When you are judging self portrait after self portrait (244 in total) and you see a drop of water on a branch (nice picture, nice bokeh and everything), my immediate thought is, 'someone's in the wrong challenge!' Without an explanation, sometimes the title doesn't make sense to the 'ordinary' person whoever the 'ordinary' person is.
Shots like this entered in a Self Portrait comp are risky. You took the risk - and good on you. But you have to expect that people will give you 1's when they don't get it.
This challenge was beyond my time. In all honesty, evern if I would have understood it (and I probably wouldn't have) as a picture it ranks a 5 or 6 to me. Just being honest.
But I admire you for doing something different and for that I give you a 10.
it just goes to show how narrow minded some people in the world are.. i personally can see where you were coming from, and if i had've seen this challange and read your tittle, i would've known where you were coming from, sometimes ( and some people ) see themselves as other things, not everyone ( me included) wants to see themselves as they are in the mirror, i personally will NEVER do a self portrait, unless i am seeing myself as you did here.... i say top marks for being out side the sqaure that everyone else seems stuck in....
OHHHH.. and a B I G congrats on the photo being published... now to me thats better than any score recieved here...
ok such a blatant shot at the brown deserves punishment. 10. other than the fact that it has nothing to do with the challenge it really is a nice shot, very moody.
I love this comment. Gave you a 10 to punish you for going for the brown, fantastic! It does show how obtruse your concept is.
Personally I would have scored this very low - most likely a one - even after reading the title its a big stretch for this challenge...
I believe the technical challenge in getting a great (literal) self portrait exceeds the technical challenge in making this image, so no bonus point there from me.
I don't know if you'll see this comment, but I just read the above comment concerning your self portrait, and for some reason I read it today.. a heck of long time afterward..but your words moved me to say that I agree with you..because I have experimented a lot with photographs and also perhaps because I paint, the urge to try different types of photos appeals to me...a lot of diversity from the norm is difficult here...people do not seem to see photographs as art in many cases; I like to use soft photos many times but I have been marked down harshly for use of soft images or unusual images, but it doesn't bother me, I pursue my own vision anyway..as you must pursue yours, but I am open minded about all forms of art...the photo you entered was indeed beautiful but perhaps people just aren't ready to see our minds, only our faces.
I know it's been a while since this challenge ended, but I just stumbled across it after not checking up on the portfolio of one of my favorite photographers in a while.
I strongly agree with your argument. The meaning of a work of art is what is conveyed through the piece, by the artist; The meaning isn't the forced opinion of the viewer, which, sadly, crops up here a little too often. I guess the expansion of mind philosophy associated with art fell through the cracks in some generation.
What's truly sad about this case in particular is that the photo not only stands on its own merits, but it meets the challenge too an expansive extent. The superficiality in judging... amazing.
What makes one's self is their thoughts, their mind, their beliefs, and what they do; not their appearance.
It's a beautiful photo, Robert. You should be proud.
Robt, I gave it a five, yip, it's not a self portrait but on the merit of the photo I could never give it less. In another competition I would have given it at least a 8 to 10. Don't let it get to you, look at my movies and pink and roadsign entries... Are they realy 4's? But that's the way others see it. Maybe one of the reasons why I'm seriously contemplating my participation in competitions. Who do I have to make happy?
It seems too deep for the general public, you must console yourself with the fact that society is never prepared for genious.... Beautiful picture with an interesting depth of field that provided texture. Your other work is on the cutting edge of expression. (Especially the hawk) Excellent! I admit that my user name is truly representive of my ability and experience but I know what I like.
Well bear music I'll squeek on in here and admit to being one of the 2's. If this had been shot for a different challenge I'll use the brokeh challenge for an example. I feel my score probably would have been around a 6 or 7. From a technical aspect its a decent photo. I think that the end of the twig stopping abrubtly in the photo is a bit distracing. It leaves me with an unfinished feel. I do however enjoy the shallow DOF, and the mood that the shot portays. I'f this had been a shot of your dog,wife, or kids. I probably would have agreed it fit the challenge. I thought about this shot for a bit before I scored it. I didn't feel that this represented you. Your kids might be part of you, your wife may have made you the way you are, but I was unable to see this lovely water drop hanging from a thorn as a photo of who someone is. I don't intend to be defending myself. I Just felt that someone who felt this was a low scoring shot should explain themself. So that perhaps you could better understand why the photo scored as it did. Well I hope I was of some help to you. May you have better luck in the Future.
Representing yourself as how you see rather than how you perceive yourself to physically be seen is certainly a valid self portrait idea. This self-portrait, to me, surely illustrates that what we choose to represent in a work of art, is or can be perceived as a reflection of ourselves. It is a primary and relevant idea, undoubtedly in a generic way done every week in any challenge. This photo is nice, but the question "does it meet the challenge" is entirely up to the voter. It is a shame that this fine picture was voted so low and so much weight given to an absolute definition.
WOW!! I can honestly say that I was not overly impressed with the image.
What I am impressed with is your explanation. If nothing else, let it be a consolation that you have changed one persons view of other peoples perceptions and ideas forever.
Robert, I really like this photo, it is well executed and the composition is very good. I think one of the main reasons that you got the score you did is that there are just too many photos to rate....it becomes overwhelming. So often it is a quick reaction, no time to contemplate....and that is a shame, but I don't know what the answer is.
DANG, Robert! You was robbed! I gave this a 6, I thought it was a very unique and original take on the challenge, and in no way did I consider it to "not meet the challenge." I too would like to see more open minds when voting. Just floors me that a shot like this could score so low. Makes no sense.
BTW, absolutely love the title.
well it's a pretty nice photo, and a subject rather popular here.
i see no reason why interpreting an image as missing a challenge would cause so many to deduct all points. personally i would hope at some point people will realize ( as mentioned above ) that there is more than your personal views on interpreting a challenge theme.
i shutter to think how many images get completely overlooked here - minus the 3 second glance during voting.
Hey robert. I like this shot. I originally gave it a 5. I like the composition and the clarity is top notch. I always like the unique additions to the challenges. I knew this had to be a self portrait without the physcial presence and it did not deserve to score that low.
I think it's funny how some people were able to recognize who the photographer was in this self-portrait while others did not consider it a self-portrait at all, which to me, is a great accomplishment. Great self-portrait! =)
I did not vote in this challenge but if I had I would have understood the connection you were making. It reminds me of the work of a photographer who made self-portraits out of things that had meaning to him or some connection to him, without ever putting himself into the picture. Unfortunately, his name escapes me at the moment, and I feel silly for commenting without knowing his name, but I felt that I just had to say that I felt this was a very highly underrated photograph.
Robert, I didn't vote on these, but as I looked I was absolutely positive that this was yours. I thought it was wonderful and perfectly your "better side". Many of us have come to "know" you through your thoughtful and worthwhile comments, and there was no doubt that this was your image.
Although I agreed with #1 I couldn't disagree more with #243. There is just no figuring out the collective DPC mind.
I gave this a six, and I might have scored it higher had I liked the colours a little more ;) I personally rather liked the unique take... it's very much something I would expect from a painter, but I'm not surprised that it wasn't well received. DPCers are often more concerned with the technical side of things than the creative (amazing given that most of us have no education whatsoever in photography) and tend to jump on anything they don't see as fitting the challenge (unrelated technicalities). It's pretty easy to not meet the challenge here. We've all done it. :)
Howdy Bear:
Can't figure out why some commentators didn't realise that if your reflection HAD appeared in the droplet, then it would NOT have met the challenge! I award a Silver Star, Bear (and a Purple Heart, I guess!)
Edit to remove response to a comment since withdrawn.
what a moron. the challenge is "SELF PORTRAIT. Get a clue
While I do believe that everyone is entitled to an opinion... the drivel spewed by this voter is mindless and serves no useful purpose.
In addition, when one considers the name used by this voter... one can get a full appreciation of exactly the type of person we are dealing with in this instance.
It certainly would be a sad state of affairs, if a person such a Bear_Music, left this forum due to such a mindless attack on his submission.
You may not always agree with some of the submissions made, but that does not give one licence to demean the creator of the photographs.
Perhaps the best photo ever to finish last or second-to-last? And I was perfectly serious, not going for the brown at all. I'll explain it all tomorrow I guess, sigh...
i understand your point of making yourself your work. however, i'm not going to rate this picture high because i really can't see too much personality here. however, this is a nice shot. nice value in the background and sharpness on the water droplet. good placement of subject as well
Robert this has to be yours... it's a lovely shot and I'm sure you're suffereing the wrath of the "DNMTC" voters. I understand where you're coming from though. :o)
ok such a blatant shot at the brown deserves punishment. 10. other than the fact that it has nothing to do with the challenge it really is a nice shot, very moody.
Bear? I don't recognise the profile, but the title looks like you. Anyway, Bear or not, I'm giving this a 7 for lateral thinking & for a finely-judged DOF.
I'm going crazy on how to vote this one. It's a beautiful photo, and I get the idea behind it: you are your art. But I can't help but wish there was a reflection of you in the drop of water. Still, it's great, and I love the abstract thinking...
cowabunga, dude! or dudette, whichever case may apply...
most interesting and daring take on the challenge. in any other fitting challenge, i'd probably score this a 7 or 8. here, though, to be fair to all those willing to turn the lens on themselves, i can only score it a 4.
Thought of taking a photo of my kids and giving it the title "Spencer and Grace's Mom" but it figured I'd get beaten up for it. Congratulations on taking a step in a different direction.
I "get it" from your title; however, I just don't think it meets the challenge as well as some of the other submissions. This is a very good shot for a different challenge.
Although this image has good qualities, I'm having trouble with this as a work of self portraiture entry. You could have tried to get some kind of a reflection of yourself into that droplet, and you'd have a much higher scoring entry.
Lovely photo for a completely different challenge I am sure. In this challenge though it really has the "Hmmm, have this nice photo, how can I force it to fit, and then convince myself it is "thinking outside the box". Not a self portrait in any REALISTIC sense.
what's "Sky Entire"? Lol - you need to cut down on those lengthy titles.
I think you know it's going to come last so i shant even bother to say it.
Nice to be creative but not good for DPC.
Hmm a poet photographer, I have some idea as to who this might be. Well it is a bit off topic even with the title, but the photo is otherwise good. A 6 from me.
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