I love to see people quit arguing about what constitutes a "valid" interpretation in the forums, and instead apply any such comments directly to the photos themselves.
I tried to stay out of this one, as I don't like arguing, and I don't MEAN to argue. But it's disheartening to grade others' pictures using your interpretation of the rules, THEN see that someone else's interpretation is being applied to your picture, especially if that pushes your picture further down the pipe toward Brown Ribbon.
As the holder of more Browns than anybody (I think so, anyway), I can truly empathize. Still, I don't care that much about the low scores as long as one or two people say they laughed or "got the point" or whatever, even if everyone else thought it was a waste of time.
However, this got the most comments of any of my photos, even with the usual 4-plus score ...
Well, it doesn't say anything about the framing object itself.
Yes it does, it says that it is to be the subject.
That is just the way you interpreted it. But the word "subject" is modified by the word "foreground", implying that there is also supposed to be a "background subject". I think the majority of the submissions understood that (although a few have no foreground framing element at all).
Like I said, the challenge wording ("Capture an image where the foreground subject frames the rest of the image") is much different than "Capture an image where the subject frames the rest of the image" (which is how you appear to have interpreted it Mike.)
Edit to add: of course Mike's interpretation (where the foreground element is the "subject") meets the challenge, as long as it is obviously in the foreground of something. However, voters are free to prefer photos that have both a framing foreground subject and a background subject.
I like the vagueness (is that a word? lol) of the challenge guidelines. By leaving it a bit vague, you allow some level of interpretation. Too strict means you'll end up with 500 photos of exactly the same thing. How boring would that be to vote on?
Eddyg, I disagree with you, but do so with a smile. :)
Originally posted by ggbudge:
I like the vagueness (is that a word? lol) of the challenge guidelines. By leaving it a bit vague, you allow some level of interpretation. Too strict means you'll end up with 500 photos of exactly the same thing. How boring would that be to vote on?
ggbudge...This is the exact point I'm raising. The wording isn't vague. It's so specific it's confusing.
I'm all for vagueness in challenge descriptions. I wish "Framing" would have been described in a way that was vague enough to allow people some room to be creative.
I believe that people ignored the specificity found in the challenge description, and I will vote with the same ignorance or else most pictures wouldn't qualify (in my opinion).
Anyhow, the fact that there is always a discussion as to the confusion of the wording should lend credibility to my argument that the wording in the challenge descriptions aren't well written.
CHALLENGE WORDING: Capture an image where the foreground subject frames the rest of the image.
IMO I break it down like this
1. Capture an image (the complete photograph)
2. Where the foreground subject (a photograph can have many subjects)
3. Foreground subject frames the rest of the image (the foreground subject adds dept to the image. And if the image was 3D it would be first element you could touch)
With all this said the foreground subject could be in focus or out of focus. The remainder of the image can be in focus or out of focus. But both cannot be out of focus. The photographer JUST has to make an impact with the photograph. Dont put to much emphasis on foreground background, etc. (JUST MAKE SURE ITS THERE). If it meets the challenge in your opinion then score the photograph accordingly to your taste.
Anyhow, the fact that there is always a discussion as to the confusion of the wording should lend credibility to my argument that the wording in the challenge descriptions aren't well written.
Given that you feel "the wording in the challenge descriptions aren't well written", please feel free to go through the "Challenge Suggestions" forum and add, edit, update, etc. the "Details" wording for any challenges listed (that haven't yet happened, anyway) with what you feel would be "perfect wording" so as not to be poorly written. We (as in the SC) will be happy to take your suggestions into account and update the challenge database accordingly. Thanks!
Anyhow, the fact that there is always a discussion as to the confusion of the wording should lend credibility to my argument that the wording in the challenge descriptions aren't well written.
Given that you feel "the wording in the challenge descriptions aren't well written", please feel free to go through the "Challenge Suggestions" forum and add, edit, update, etc. the "Details" wording for any challenges listed (that haven't yet happened, anyway) with what you feel would be "perfect wording" so as not to be poorly written. We (as in the SC) will be happy to take your suggestions into account and update the challenge database accordingly. Thanks!
To be honest, that sounds more like a bitter response than an actual evaluation of my opinion which could have been used to improve future wording.
I was not suggesting that I expect (nor that I am able to deliver) 'perfect wording' for the challenge details. I was simply offering up a suggested improvement on the nature of the descriptions in general.
I can see by the spirit of your last remark that my suggestion has fallen upon deaf ears who hear only the criticism and take personal offence, rather than gleaning any useful information which may help with the improvement of this already wonderful website.
"Capture an image where the foreground subject frames the rest of the image."
I got a comment that I should try framing a subject next time, or something to that effect... which is fine, and I'm not complaining about that because someone DID take the time to comment, but the instructions state that the foreground subject frames the rest of the image, not necessarily frames a specific other subject...so (an example) if the rest of my image was water, the foreground subject should frame that water in an appealing way...just one more interpretation of the wording! ;o)
I can see by the spirit of your last remark that my suggestion has fallen upon deaf ears who hear only the criticism and take personal offence, rather than gleaning any useful information which may help with the improvement of this already wonderful website.
My comments were 100% sincere, and I'm sorry you read them otherwise. As I stated previously, most of the challenges are taken from the Challenge Suggestions forum and are regularly put into the challenge database by either Drew, Langdon or one of the SC members. In all seriousness, if you feel you can improve the quality of the challenges here on DPC, then by all means, please take a crack at it. If necessary, I will edit suggestions I add to the database for clarity when I add them, but I'm certainly no expert on writing such that they won't be interpreted "differently". (I hated grammar/English classes when I was in school with a passion!)
I must have totally misinterpreted the challenge then, because I thought that we just had to have the subject in the background FRAMED by the foreground object, so...my frame's not infocus or even recognizable, and my score is a 4.6 (where it's been since the start).
Gravity
Take a picture which shows the effects of gravity.
This was the suggested description, and I think it's good. It's concise but leaves a lot of room for creativity. I would hate for it to turn into something like:
Gravity
Gravity is the downward force which prevents things on earth from flying into space. Take a picture which shows this effect.
Mike: I don't see any difference in clarity or "allowable" creativity between the example descriptions you posted. Either one would result in basically a "free study", since almost everything is effected by gravity. It would be almost impossible to "not meet the challenge", i.e. "My Cat -- Not Floating In Air Because Of Gravity"... and these type of challenges (where they aren't restrictive enough), usually results in a lot of (mostly-boring) entries.
Gravity
Take a picture which shows the effects of gravity.
This was the suggested description, and I think it's good. It's concise but leaves a lot of room for creativity. I would hate for it to turn into something like:
Gravity
Gravity is the downward force which prevents things on earth from flying into space. Take a picture which shows this effect.
Hmmm. How about:
Gravity: the downward force which pulls things near earth toward it at accellerating speeds. Your challenge is to submit a picture that shows gravity at work on an object, in a way that is visibly apparent. Remember: Objects at rest aren't considered accelerating, so a picture of something that seems to be sitting still can't be considered viable.
(Edit: I would love to see this one as a basic challenge, so that motion blur filters are kept at a minimum...)
Now we're getting somewhere... with that description, you're telling folks that the shots have to have some movement in them. Much better, IMHO, since it is now more of a "challenge".
Now we're getting somewhere... with that description, you're telling folks that the shots have to have some movement in them. Much better, IMHO, since it is now more of a "challenge".
Cool, Let me port this post over to that thread in Challenge Suggestions...
Mike: I don't see any difference in clarity or "allowable" creativity between the example descriptions you posted. Either one would result in basically a "free study", since almost everything is effected by gravity. It would be almost impossible to "not meet the challenge", i.e. "My Cat -- Not Floating In Air Because Of Gravity"... and these type of challenges (where they aren't restrictive enough), usually results in a lot of (mostly-boring) entries.
You're right, they are more of a 'free study' type of challenge. Here's a better example:
computerking's suggestion: "Be it Fear, Anger, Wrath, Scorn, Disgust, Jealousy, or even Hatred, negative emotions are as much part of our life as a positive one. Your Challenge is to take a picture that either expresses or evokes one of the darker emotions. Keep in mind the Terms of Use while you’re coming up with a picture, and, of course, try to remain as tasteful as possible."
They key to this description is "Your Challenge is to take a picture that either expresses or evokes one of the darker emotions" rather than "Take a picture of a person displaying one of these emotions".
Hopefully what I'm saying makes a little bit of sense...
The one thing that I am noticing in this discussion more than anything is the very limited view of what a subject is and how it is to be treated. There are comments that implie, if not actually say, that a subject has to be in focus and exposed properly (not too dark or too light); but a subject can be out of focus and improperly exposed. We have had a challenge of under exposed subjects as silhouettess, and there have been many with the subject over exposed such as a recent entry about chenobrl (sp?) viagra and a past image of Pandora's box -- sorry, but I don't rememeber who's they are). Now that I look at it, a challenge in which the subject is out of focus would be quite interesting.
If it is in the image, and your eyes see it as an individual object of the scene it is a subject -- it may not be the primary subject, but it is a subject. It doesn't have to be in focus, it doesn't have to be clearly exposed, it doesn't have to be a solid object even.
I guess I just find the challenges more interesting when the discription is taken strictly, but the terms used are viewed with an open mind.
Another Challenge Interpretation soap opera starring EddyG. Very entertaining.
FWIW- I agree with Eddy. In any photo demonstrating framing, the foreground and background elements are both subjects / major elements. In a nutshell: take a picture where something in the foreground frames something in the background.
The way I interpreted the challenge was, two objects, one framing the other, whether it be a window frame, hole in a wall, trees, rocks,hands, and so on and on. The main thing is the foreground object should be visible as an object not just a dark shadow area.
Just my thoughts.
Isn't a frame in the forground, a frame in the foreground regardless of the fact it may be a dark shadow area?
