Absolutely. I have often pushed the envelope on what people think is acceptable (despite the site rules being fairly well defined and broad). I can't tell you how many times folks have left comments that had nothing to do with photography but their perception of morality.
I'm not mainstream. I like pushing the envelope. I am, however, conservative. The two are not mutually inclusive or exclusive, they are simply different ways of looking at the world.
"Let's face it...if a Teddy Bear and a Dildo can be outvoted by a lucite plunger handle and a piece of foamcore, I must have really annoyed some folks."
Or they could have just thought is wasn't a good picture.
"Let's face it...if a Teddy Bear and a Dildo can be outvoted by a lucite plunger handle and a piece of foamcore, I must have really annoyed some folks."
Or they could have just thought is wasn't a good picture.
Is there a particular reason you felt it necessary to make this discussion personal? I was answering a question asked about the tendency of voters to moralize and impose their own morality on other photographers.
I suppose that your post actually proves my point exactly. Thanks very much.
Do you ever had the feeling that somebody on DPC wants to educate somebody else? .... I am talking about "Evangelism" which is: tell others what they should do....
Well, we are an international community of highly opinionated individuals. It's only logical that what you feel is what happens.
Well, we are an international community of highly opinionated individuals. It's only logical that what you feel is what happens.
Well.. let's get naughtier here..
My post was not about:
Originally posted by shareinnc:
about the tendency of voters to moralize and impose their own morality on other photographers.
So it was not even about JimB's issue.
In fact, my post was not about people who share the same (little) level of powers (users/voters) but about who has some more power. What if whoever has more power wants to educate someone else who has less power..
What about that?
And maybe, to another extent, what if there are lobbies of users on DPC? Of course the power of a lobby is always greater than the power of an individual, then my previous consideration applies again, even if on a different scale.
"Let's face it...if a Teddy Bear and a Dildo can be outvoted by a lucite plunger handle and a piece of foamcore, I must have really annoyed some folks."
Or they could have just thought is wasn't a good picture.
I am talking about "Evangelism" which is: tell others what they should do....
I think DPC's voting system sort of leads to that automatically. If I want to do well I have to conform to what others want. Not necessarily a good thing, but maybe it's unavoidable?
... what if there are lobbies of users on DPC? Of course the power of a lobby is always greater than the power of an individual....
IMO, of course there is. Any organization that has ballooned to even just a tiny fraction of DPC's size will have a core group of people with a dominant view of aesthetics. And that view, is what will sway people in one way or another, as they form their personal standards for their own compositions. Good or bad, it's really just bound to happen.
I am talking about "Evangelism" which is: tell others what they should do....
I think DPC's voting system sort of leads to that automatically. If I want to do well I have to conform to what others want. Not necessarily a good thing, but maybe it's unavoidable?
I don't know.. we are discussing the same point on two different threads but I trust that you can keep the track. (and we can always edit and correct, anyway).
My point is that if you run a challenge on photography (ideally) not only you want to have the absolute best in the 1st ten places but also, if possible, the best overall up to the 30/40 place.
How you do that? I understand it could be impossible but I would like to experiment on it before arriving to a conclusion.
IMO, of course there is. Any organization that has ballooned to even just a tiny fraction of DPC's size will have a core group of people with a dominant view of aesthetics. And that view, is what will sway people in one way or another, as they form their personal standards for their own compositions. Good or bad, it's really just bound to happen.
And that is a point very much related with my other views.
I am not discussing ethics about it.
I feel that there is something else more relevantly wrong with it: that limits the expansion and ultimately the success of the website.
My point is that if you run a challenge on photography (ideally) not only you want to have the absolute best in the 1st ten places but also, if possible, the best overall up to the 30/40 place.
You make an interesting point about getting the top 30-40 places 'correct'. The problem is, there are a lot of pics that get medium scores (if we think of a normal distribution). With so many jostling for position, it's fairly easy for 0.1 to make a huge difference to position. In the top 10, a difference of 0.1 doesn't normally make /that/ much difference.
...I feel that there is something else more relevantly wrong with it: that limits the expansion and ultimately the success of the website.
I agree. For one, a dominant view can somehow stunt the creativity of a person with a very non-dogmatic approach to doing things. But that does not apply to 'different' people with a strong resolve to continue their ways despite the general disapproval they get from the site.
On another note, there's no point in being too pessimistic about it. You don't have to have a 'monogamous' relationship with DPC anyway! And also, very subjective aesthetic standards are always in a state of flux, EVEN with an unofficial 'style council' in place.
My point is that if you run a challenge on photography (ideally) not only you want to have the absolute best in the 1st ten places but also, if possible, the best overall up to the 30/40 place.
You make an interesting point about getting the top 30-40 places 'correct'. The problem is, there are a lot of pics that get medium scores (if we think of a normal distribution). With so many jostling for position, it's fairly easy for 0.1 to make a huge difference to position. In the top 10, a difference of 0.1 doesn't normally make /that/ much difference.
That's why I have been thinking so much of a different voting system which, after all, is probably in use in many real (not virtual) challenges.
If you (voter) can give your preference to one or few pics (3?) only, then there is nobody who takes low votes and, even much more importantly, only the pics which really stands out get the individual preferences.
Also, that mechanism could remove the anonymous vote because nobody could get insulted by a low vote and the whole systems would achieve a greater level of transparency.
... If you (voter) can give your preference to one or few pics (3?) only, then there is nobody who takes low votes and, even much more importantly, only the pics which really stands out get the individual preferences...
Interesting. But then, there will be another layer of complication: good-looking thumbnails will surely have an edge.
.. But that does not apply to 'different' people with a strong resolve to continue their ways despite the general disapproval they get from the site.
On another note, there's no point in being too pessimistic about it. You don't have to have a 'monogamous' relationship with DPC anyway! And also, very subjective aesthetic standards are always in a state of flux, EVEN with an unofficial 'style council' in place.
I agree. Apart from my criticism, I like DPC very much: it offers an excellent service and, as far as I know, there is nothing better on the Net.
Time permitting, I will try to run my own competions-oriented website with some of the rules I was mentioning.
Even in that case, however, I will be still very active on DPC because I would not feel appropriate to partecipate to challenges of my own site.
you cant place an initial vote on the thumbnail. you must open the image full-size
Yes. I was just describing the generic process and I did it prett badly.
I edited the second point to make it clear that all picture (not thumbnails) should be viewed during a voting session.
Basically, the use of thumbnails during the vote should be avoided. There is no actual reason to have them there, because they are just a source of unfairness.
....Basically, the use of thumbnails during the vote should be avoided. There is no actual reason to have them there, because they are just a source of unfairness.
My sentiments, exactly. But they are certainly useful for returning back to entries I feel commenting on. How about making the thumbnails available only after the 20% quota is reached? In that way, at least 20% got surely critiqued/voted on based on the merits of the full-sized image.
That's why I have been thinking so much of a different voting system which, after all, is probably in use in many real (not virtual) challenges.
If you (voter) can give your preference to one or few pics (3?) only, then there is nobody who takes low votes and, even much more importantly, only the pics which really stands out get the individual preferences.
Also, that mechanism could remove the anonymous vote because nobody could get insulted by a low vote and the whole systems would achieve a greater level of transparency.
This sounds like an interesting concept and perhaps you should start a site that does just that. I would certainly be interested in particapating there. As for DPC, I think the top 10 images in each challenge are the 10 best images as determined by the voters. My 10 favorite images are never all in the top 10. Rarely are more than 3 or 4 there... But it's not my favorites that should win. It's the 10 images that get the highest score from the population at large :)
